Podcast: How to parent and educate neurodiverse brains effectively

Nip in the Bud Podcast - Episode 3

How to parent and educate neurodiverse brains effectively

Download Episode | Published 22-Aug-2023 | Duration: 1h 18m 8

Bettina is a Clinical Psychologist, author and speaker working in the field of child mental health and neurodiversity. She works with parents, organisations and schools, teaching about neuroscience and psychological science.

Her aim is to help busy adults understand what helps young people thrive and she does this through working with the key adults in children’s lives.

She co-wrote The Incredible Teenage Brain (Everything You Need to Know to Unlock a Teen’s Potential) and How to have incredible conversations with your child.

She is passionate about the power of relationships and tries to distil complex ideas into actionable strategies that parents and teachers can use.

In today's episode we discuss attachment theory, how to promote functional skills, and Bettina shares many tips on parenting and educating that will give you ideas and strategies to confidently support the children you care for.

Transcript

00:00:03 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Neurodiversity is really this new term that has come about in the last few years, really moving away from this idea of disability to divergence. So this idea that there's something wrong with you, to this idea that we all have different brains.

Introduction

00:00:42 Alis Rocca

Today I am in conversation with Dr. Bettina Honan. Bettina is a clinical psychologist, author and speaker, working in the field of child mental health and neurodiversity. She works with parents, organisations and schools teaching about neuroscience and about psychological science. Her aim is to help busy adults understand what helps young people thrive. And she does this through working with the key adults in children's lives. She's co-written the books The Incredible Teenage Brain, Everything You Need to Know to Unlock a Teen's Potential and How to Have Incredible Conversations with Your Child. Dr. Bettina is passionate about the power of relationships and tries to distill complex ideas into actionable strategies that parents and teachers can use easily and effectively. Welcome Bettina and thank you for joining me in conversation today. Could we just start our conversation with a little background on you? What was your your your own experience of school?

Bettina's Own School Experience

00:01:52 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah. Well, um, I had a bit of a wobbly path, I would say. Um so I actually really struggled to engage academically at school at all. Um I had lots of m school changes and various things were going on at home, but essentially I came out of school having kind of failed academically. I really I failed all my A levels. I got two F's and an X. And um really a concept of myself as not being very intelligent. I then trained as a secretary, I travelled the world a bit, and actually that was an incredible education in it just in itself, and came back in my mid-20s, and then uh I was about 23, and I think I remember saying to my mum, I'm really interested in child development. And she said, Oh, you'll have to go to university. And I kind of said, Oh, I can't do that, I'm not clever enough. Um, but somehow found the bravery to kind of get back, I redid my A levels, and then I found that I loved learning and I kept studying, studying and studying. Um, yeah, so it was a a bit wobbly to begin with, to say the least. Um, but uh then uh once I found a subject that I was really interested in, I really couldn't stop studying and actually continue to learn and study even now. I just enjoy it so much.

00:03:13 Alis Rocca

What what do you think was the reason for it being such a wobbly start?

00:03:18 Dr Bettina Hohnen

I think I have some neurodiversity myself. Um, I haven't ever got a diagnosis, but I think my brain learns in a very particular way. And uh I don't think there was any adults in my life uh at the time who were able to see that or help me through it. Um there was a key change actually to school when I was 13, which is just was I was hitting the teenage years, and I think I became very interested in the social world and I wasn't doing very well uh academically, and I think I just didn't focus on that. I think looking back, that's what happened. But the story that I gave myself at the time was not that the story I gave myself at the time was I'm not very clever, I'm not very good at this, which I think is so interesting. I think it's been one of the things that's uh really been a key driver of the work that I do is trying to just understand, you know, some kids just don't thrive at school, they don't thrive in the environment they're in. Why is that? And actually, it really falls to the adults around a child to try to understand what's going on. And I'm not I'm not blaming the adults around me, but just for whatever reason that didn't click and and whoever tried to reach me didn't reach me. And it really sets you up on your path as an adult, that school experience, how you come out of school, the story you have about yourself, that can be really hard to fight, actually. It can be really hard to change, even now. So I am in my mid-50s and um just trying to uh write a book, and I'm really struggling with it now. Honestly, now it's it's really I know it sounds crazy.

00:05:02 Alis Rocca

Is there like an inner voice that's still that child at 13 saying you can't do this?

00:05:07 Dr Bettina Hohnen

You can't do this, you're not good enough. The reason you were successful there, there's another story. You just, you know, so and so helped you. The reason you were successful there, making up another story about it. And I the rational part of me knows that that's crazy now. You know, I have many degrees, I've even written a couple of books. Uh, and it might be quite annoying for other people to listen to, but I can honestly tell you that the voice there that was set in my teenage years, that I'm not very clever and I'm gonna be found out. I'm still fighting it to this day, which is why I think it's so important that we get this right for kids. It's so important that we look at every child who is struggling in whatever way and we say, Okay, I believe you can do it, and I'm want to find out and kind of unlock what is blocking you.

00:05:57 Alis Rocca

And you you said that you don't want to blame anyone, but who whatever adults were around you at the time may not have reached you. But where do you think that story came from? Do you think that was from society, from the adults, from the education system? Where where do you think that originated, this idea that you're not good enough, not clever enough?

00:06:21 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Well, I think the teachers did kind of tell me that, to be honest. Uh, times have changed. There was a time when I sat down with my children who were now in their twenties, and we went through my school reports and we were rolling on the floor with laughter at the things that they could say that you would just wouldn't say in this day and age. But yeah, I mean, that's that is the message that I got from people. You're just not very good at this. You know, I played the piano and people said, Oh, she's quite musical, or you know, she's got a nice smile. Um, but they were I so I I really did get it. I mean, I I do think that there's a problem with the education system. Now we're actually recording this when results, big results days are coming out, aren't they, in the UK? Yeah. And there's a lot of talk about the difficulty with our education system, and it remains to this day that I think we set it up so children judge themselves on the grades that they get within an education system that is designed to fit some kinds of brains very well and other kinds of brains not at all. So it is from society, but I do think that in our relationship with children, we can have we do have the power to change that belief for kids if we know what we're doing. And that's what I think I have devoted my life to doing is working with adults to help adults. I know all adults want to do the best for kids, but sometimes they don't, you know. I know a lot of the science I've devoted my life to learning about the neuroscience, the psychological science. And I think some of these bits of science are absolutely gold dust in helping us to understand how we can reach kids and how we can help them.

The Four Phases of Parenting

00:08:05 Alis Rocca

And obviously, um, as a charity, we're very concerned with nipping things in the bud. How young would you suggest we as adults begin to make those differences to the children? Make it sh make it clear that that they can, that they can achieve, that they are successful. When would you start?

00:08:26 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Um right at the beginning. Right at the beginning. And you know, we have to understand the developmental model of what's happening for kids. I uh uh I was hearing this thing the other day, which I think is such a lovely way of describing it. It's that there's four phases of being a parent. The first one is the first two years of life where you're just a comforter. It's about bonding, it's about eye contact, about making a bond. Then you become their coach, uh, and that's from two to the beginning of the teenage years, which is I think an absolutely key time. But it's a time when the brain is developing millions and millions and millions of connections in the brain, and the child is learning, they're learning from you. You have an incredible amount of influence on them, but um also uh at that time they're learning about relationships and modeling is very important. So they're watching what you do, and that's how they learn things. But there's certain things in the education system that happen, expectations we have of kids at those ages. And if a kid is struggling at any point, we need to understand why. So they're struggling to learn to read. Okay, we need to understand what's going on for them in terms of their brain. Is there something emotionally or socially going on? They're struggling to sit down at the table, they're struggling to meet um expectations in terms of behavior. So rather than saying, oh, labeling them as this is a naughty child, this is an unintelligent child, this is something that's quite damning and negative, that's the point at which we need to go. What's really going on? And really working with this belief that every child wants to be in a positive relationship with the adults in their life if they can be. And if they're not, there's something going on, and it belies to the adults to try and work out what happens. Just to say the last two phases, then you go into the the teenagers, which requires a significant shift as an adult in terms of your relationship because of what's going on in their brain. That's much more about being a kind of counsellor. It's about, you know, much more of a reciprocal relationship. You're still very strongly their guide, but they have to have a bit more of a say in things. And then the last bit is like from 17 upwards to maybe mid-20s when the brain ends developing in our mid-20s, which is more of a consultant. You know, you're really stepping back. You haven't taken your hands away completely, but you're really allowing them to um to take charge much more in their life overall. But yeah, at every stage in these early stages, if you can catch it, anything that's going on in terms of the differences in their brain or in terms of what's happening socially and emotionally from them, you can set kids up on a much more positive path. And you have really have so much more influence in those primary years. And it's a key time for setting up the relationships.

00:11:25 Alis Rocca

So just to recap that for our listeners, you're you're saying the first age is a comforter, and that's from birth to to two years. Yeah. And then you move into the coaching stage, which was two years to early teens. And then from coach, you become counsellor up until um was it early 20s? Or until 17 or so? 17, and then consultant. And I would argue you probably stay as consultant for the rest of their lives, even when they become adults. Exactly. That never never goes away. Yeah. So I mean, that's quite I love I love the way that you've some summed it up like that, but that's quite a tall order for us as parents. There's no guidebook, there's no qualification. You come home from hospital with your baby. You know, what what sort of advice would you give to help parents travail that journey?

00:12:22 Dr Bettina Hohnen

I think there's a lot of learning that we have to do as a parent. I think an old idea is you will just know, you'll have an instinct, don't worry about it, just get on with it. And it's really interesting, isn't it? Because when I was having kids, there was a pre there were prenatal classes that everybody seemed to go to. But there were no classes afterwards. And I remember being very struck by oh, okay, I've got it out. I've got the baby here, it's alive. It's worked. Oh, I didn't really think about what to do now. Yeah, I think that has changed. You know, my youngest is 25. Um, but uh so what I think is that we now have so much knowledge available to us about what kids need to grow up to be psychologically healthy, what I would call psychologically healthy. There are some key theories we could get into, we could talk a little bit about. And I think the neuroscience, which has really developed over the last 25 years or so, is also key in helping us to understand how the brain develops. So that developmental model that I was just talking about, you know, we need to change as a parent over the 25 years that our kids are developing. We didn't used to know that, but we do know that now. They need different things from us and about how the brain functions. So there are some key things that really help us to know how to communicate, how to help them manage emotions. Um, so those are things that there's a bit of learning that I think is absolutely crucial. I think if we could teach all parents that right from the beginning, it really sets you up for success. So that's a bit of it.

00:14:02 Alis Rocca

So, how do parents learn? Where do they find that information? Where would you send them?

00:14:08 Dr Bettina Hohnen

That there's a lot of really brilliant books. I could could give you some really good books actually.

00:14:14 Alis Rocca

Um that would be great if we could have them for the show notes so that the audience can just just choose, pick and choose what suits them. That would be wonderful.

00:14:22 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah. Um, and to be honest, social media is amazing now. Uh, you know, I've been putting a few little videos on Instagram and things, but there are other people who who do it a lot more and in a bigger way, and they have big followings, but they are little nuggets of gold dust, and they're the things that we need to be reminded of all the time. Um, because it's hard, you know, you arrive at parenting having no idea, you have a model of how you were parented, which was imperfect because everybody's experience was imperfect, some more imperfect than others, and unless we reflect on it and we are prepared to go, okay, what's going on for me now in terms of how I'm responding to my child? Unless we do that, we are likely to kind of repeat patterns, many of which will be unhelpful patterns from our past. So I think there's a bit of psychoeducation called psychoeducation, working out what do I need to do, what's important for children when they're growing up, and then there's a bit of self-reflection. I think those two things are what sets you up to be the best parent you can be.

00:15:32 Alis Rocca

And I I love the way that you talk about little nuggets. It's not that you need to go and get a PhD on parenting, but actually sometimes it's just listening to a minute or two of somebody talk that just drops that gold dust. And I suppose, I suppose that's how it would have been when a whole village brought up a child. Right. You know, we're we're so we're so isolated in a way, aren't we? And and I I agree, I remember the antenatal classes and getting all of that help, even down to this is how you're gonna hold the baby, this is how you're gonna wash the baby. But then afterwards it's like, okay, you now you're on your own. And actually, that is a huge bonus of social media that we can just get these nuggets. We can because often it's it's things that we don't know we need to know, but if you just hear it and you have that reflective attitude that you're talking about, then it's it's can it can impact greatly on the way that you you behave as a parent. So let's talk a little bit in more depth about the work that you currently do. So just just tell us what your role is now.

00:16:39 Dr Bettina Hohnen

So I work mostly with parents uh in my kind of clinical work, if you like. Parents will come to me where they're struggling. It's often in the context of neurodiversity, because that is um one of my backgrounds is in understanding neuro working, what they used to call neurodisability, they're now called neurodiversity. So kids whose brains are wired slightly differently. You know, maybe children who have ADHD is a particular expertise of mine. Or with parents where their kids are struggling with their mental health. Like they've come to a bit of a roadblock, they don't know what to do, they'll come to me and I help them with that. So that's a big part of what I do. I mean, I also work with organizations, with schools, in helping them to understand some of this science, um, which I think is so helpful. But in my work with parents, I would say those two things that I talked about are key. So there's a bit of kind of psychoeducation. Here's what you need to know. You might not know, you might have known some of this stuff. And let's look at what's actually going on for you in your relationship with your child.

Attachment Theory

00:17:43 Alis Rocca

Right. Thank you. So could you tell us a little bit about some of the uh the philosophy or the thinking behind the work and behind your approaches?

00:17:54 Dr Bettina Hohnen

So attachment theory is one of the biggest theories that drives what I do, which I think is becoming more and more well known. It was developed by somebody called John Bowlby, and it's really this idea that the relationships we form very early in life form the template for all future relationships. Now we're fundamentally social beings and we need to be in relationship with another person to survive. I mean, if you just stop and think for a moment that a human brain takes 25 years to develop, like more than a quarter of a human's life is devoted to this developmental phase. And so that's partly, I mean, that's why we think this social bond is so key. You know, babies need to be in relationship, otherwise you wouldn't survive. So these relationships are fundamental and they're actually a precondition for any growth and learning that happens throughout life. So attachment theory is one of the most important theories. Um, and I really love a course called Circle of Security Parenting. If anybody wants to look that up, um, there are people who run it in the UK. I run it sometimes, but there's a charity uh called Connected Lives who run them. Um, and it's really, I love this idea. So, this is this idea that we are the hands on the circle for our children. And actually, in all relationships, we're going out, leaving the person that we love, and then we're coming back in. So it's this circle, and kids are doing this throughout their lives, and we need to be the best hands that we can be. We provide them with a secure base, and that's what attachment theory is all about. How can I provide my kids with as secure a base I can so that they can go and explore the world and they know that they've got somewhere to come back to where you've got their back, where you where you accept them and love them unconditionally.

00:19:47 Alis Rocca

And what happens if a child doesn't have that? What what what's the the flip side of what you're talking about if they aren't a a safe pair of hands? Um, if if a parent's struggling at the beginning, or indeed if if there's some sort of um adverse childhood experience that has made meant that that child doesn't feel attachment as easily as others. What what does that look like maybe as they go through that developmental stage up to 25, but also beyond?

00:20:19 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Well, I mean the first thing to say I think is that things obviously do happen. Uh, and it's never too late to kind of try and repair relationships and come back and and kind of mend things. So that's one of the great things about knowing about this theory is that we we understand what we need to do to help kids and people to become more attached, to feel more secure. I mean, I think the uh there are various kind of categories of attachment difficulty, but essentially it has an impact on a person's ability to make relationships, to have relationships that are really effective, to manage conflict, and it can also lead to mental health difficulties and other things down the road. But sometimes parents will come to me when their kids are a bit older and they'll say, Oh, it's too late. It's never too late. It's literally never too late. Even if you are the adult of a um, you know, the parent of an adult and you feel like your relationship is it is in a difficult place, there's always repair. You can come back and you can fix things.

00:21:27 Alis Rocca

So what does that repair look like? What what sort of things would you would you suggest somebody did if they if they were at that point where they needed to repair attachments and repair relationships?

00:21:40 Dr Bettina Hohnen

I mean, I think it's requires a lot of honesty, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of admitting when you were wrong, and also kind of being very curious about what the other person experienced. Listening to them can just that can be magical in itself. Uh, and I know adults whose parents have said to them, Do you know what? I was thinking about when you were a kid, and I'm really sorry that I didn't know about X, and I think the impact on you might have been Y. That is so powerful in helping somebody to understand what's going on for them and to get them in a pla better place mentally. Because kids need to be in a relationship with their parents, so they will make adjustments as to what they need in order to support what their kids need. But sometimes those adjustments are not good for the person as they as they grow up.

Managing Emotions and Communication

00:22:42 Alis Rocca

Is there any way that you can uh help parents in the work that you do to have those types of conversations with their children and to to develop effective relationships?

00:22:54 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah. I mean I would I would say there are three kind of big things. Well, understanding this idea of you being their secure base where they come and go is one thing.

00:23:04 Alis Rocca

And that secure base, does that last throughout their developmental stage, or is that just within the the comforter stage?

00:23:12 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Throughout the whole developmental phase, yeah. I mean, in actually it almost becomes more important during the teenage years, even though teenagers are kind of looking away from you because the teenagers are all about finding my friends, working out who I am, becoming independent, having a different view to their parents. But actually, because the teenagers is so much about going out and exploring and going on adventures, they really need that secure base more and more. It's easier to provide, I would say, in the early years. It's kind of easier to provide preteen but essential later. And that transition when they leave for university, it's very, very important. So understanding that, the secure base, the next thing I will always work with parents on is how to manage emotions. And this is a big thing that I think is being talked about more and more. But this idea that when a child, I mean, often emotions are shown as behavior. So when a child shows a behavior, they're having a tantrum, they're whatever it is is happening. Rather than just responding to the behavior, we have to look underneath and say what's really going on for them, and try to understand what's going on for them emotionally. Because parents are key emotion regulators for their kids. And learning how to manage our own emotions is one of the things we have to learn during our childhood. So that's one thing, that's the second thing that's very important. So we've got being the secure base, understanding the going and coming, how to manage emotions, communicating with them is another thing. It's how to really talk with young people. Um, so um, the kind of when and how to do that, so that you are holding them within the safety of your relationship, but also helping them to problem solve a little bit without you. And I think parents can get, they can either become a little bit too um, they will uh kind of overcompensate a little bit and not allow their kids to find their own strength, or they can push them a little bit too hard and not be enough of a comfort for them. I think that's the way in which we can become unbalanced. And boundaries is a really important thing, holding boundaries, but kindly, you know, without frightening kids, without being unkind to them, um, but being firm and being really consistent, which is another thing that parents can really struggle with. So the the parents that come to see me, those are the basic things that we'll go over to begin with. Watching some videos, learning some mantras, understanding some of the kind of techniques, secure base, managing emotions, communicating and holding firm, kind boundaries.

00:26:09 Alis Rocca

And you talked quite a lot there about the importance of balance in all of that. How does a a parent know when the balance has shifted in in one way or another?

00:26:20 Dr Bettina Hohnen

This is the hardest thing, I think, as a parent. It's knowing when do I protect and when do I push them? And it's making that call. It's it's hard. And I think it becomes even more complicated when your child has a diagnosis of some kind. Do you know? Um, there's a really within circle of security, there's something that I find really helpful. It's a mantra. Always be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind. And sometimes if you think of sitting on a seesaw, when we're trying to be kind, if we lose strength, we become weak. And that means we say to our child, No, you can't go to the party. Our child falls to the floor, they cry, they whatever happens, and then we say, Okay, you can go. That's an example. Being weak is being kind.

00:27:12 Alis Rocca

You think you're being kind, but actually you're being weak and you've you've dissolved that boundary that you you'd already put in place.

00:27:18 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, exactly. And actually, it it feels like a relief in the moment because your child is no longer angry with you or they're no longer sad, but it doesn't help them feel safe. They need us to be strong. And the other thing we can do when we're trying to be strong, we lose kindness and then we become mean. And that's when we frighten kids or we use our power or our authority over them in an unkind way. You are just so spoiled. Oh my god, I can't believe, you know, I've given you everything and you still want more, you know, those kind of things, or making a statement about a child. You're you you your trouble is you're just lazy. Those things are not kind, and we're using our strength in a way we can make kids do things in the short term, but it doesn't help in the long term.

00:28:05 Alis Rocca

So I don't know if that's helpful, but just thinking about actually that reminded me of of how we started our conversation, and you talked about that that narrative that was implanted at 13, and I was thinking then maybe that's how it happens when the parent loses the balance and may say you are lazy, you know, and then that you've suddenly got a label that you might absorb as a child. Yeah. So we do need to be we need to be mindful of what we're saying and how we're saying it.

00:28:34 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, absolutely. And always looking underneath and going, what's really going on for you? I know that you want to be the best kid you can be. I know that you want to be in a good relationship with me, and yet it's still going wrong. But I've got to really think about that.

00:28:50 Alis Rocca

And what about those behaviours that are less demonstrative? So those behaviours that might be just a child that's or a teenager that's just really quiet or withdrawn or staying in their room, or you know, not not necessarily throwing the tantrum and crying and screaming. Does does that is that the same, or is there is there a different nuance there with how you would encourage parents to deal with that?

00:29:16 Dr Bettina Hohnen

No, I think the parents parents need to hold in mind all the kind of developmental tasks, what's important to be a thriving person. And one of the things that's important to be and or a thriving and engaged person is to be connecting with other people. You know, kids need to have friends. It's essential that they are socially connected. If that is not happening, then I do think it's up to parents to go again with a very curious stance. I wonder what's really going on. And that might be when they need a little bit more of a push. So it I think it is, you're a balancer in a way, as a parent. You're a balancer in so many ways. You're always trying to work out okay, I know that this is what kids need, I know this is what's happening. For the them developmentally. So, where do I need to kind of um accommodate a little bit more for them? Uh, and sometimes kids do need accommodation, you know. Sometimes normal everyday school is a little bit too much for a young person to cope with for whatever reason, so you want to make adjustments, and sometimes it's a bit like actually, I've got to just push you out a little bit more because I think you're retreating, and I don't think that retreating is helpful for your development.

Screen Time and Balance

00:30:30 Alis Rocca

There's there's a way that a lot of young children and teens are retreating into their games and gaming and creating friends. So I've had conversations with, you know, late, primary, early, secondary age, and they'll say, I've got hundreds of friends, but they're online. What what's your thinking around that? Is that equal to having the friendships that you're talking about, the social friendships?

00:30:59 Dr Bettina Hohnen

This is really tricky, and it's such a big thing for this generation of parents' screens. And and I think we have been peddling madly as adults over the last five to ten years, five years. I mean, it's changing all the time to work out how to manage it. For some young people, there is a lot of social connection that goes on online, and particularly there is a bit of a gender difference here because I think for some boys in particular, they do socially connect online, and somehow it's easier for them because it gets rid of some of the, you know, um the face-to-face stuff, the eye contact or uh all that stuff that can be quite overwhelming. So I think some of it is important. I think we have to keep that in the bracket of they are socially connecting. But if that's all they're doing, that's not good for them. So again, it is it is being a balance. I mean, I think um screen time is a big thing that's been talked about. But the advice now about it's not so much about screen time per se. It's about saying, is the child engaged in life in other ways? So for example, are they sleeping? Are they eating? Are they moving? Moving exercises become the biggest thing that people are talking about now. People talk about sitting down as being like the next smoking for this generation. Um, are they uh, you know, engaging with their friends and seeing their friends in real life? And are they engaged academically and having relate, you know, having time with their family? So you could almost have that list, and you have that list next to you, and maybe you'd do a little monitor in a week and you'd say, okay, or in a day, how much are they doing that? And then that will give you an idea about actually this bit's missing from their lives. So it's not about making screens all bad, but sometimes screens will replace something that is essential for a kid's development.

Working With Teachers

00:32:48 Alis Rocca

I really like the idea of an idolistic view of writing a checklist and using that checklist as a parent to help you see where where the balance is and help you then know how you need to react and respond. We've talked a lot about parents. How how do you help educationalists? You you mentioned there about school. How how would a teacher gain from some of the things that you've shared so far?

00:33:18 Dr Bettina Hohnen

I mean, I think the science is the same, and I would talk to teachers in a very similar way about what's going on for kids, what they need. It's slightly different. I think teachers take over as being kind of like a um a step-in attachment figure for kids, particularly in the early years. And I think we need to understand that for some young people, they arrive at school having a model of relationships that they're going to try and repeat. So, for example, there are some young people who learn at home that the way in which they get attention is to be difficult or to cause a problem. And they will carry that into school because that's what they've learned from home. So, again, I think for teachers about properly labeling behavior, seeing behavior, always trusting kids are being the best they can be, is like the crucial, it's a crucial first step. Absolutely crucial.

00:34:19 Alis Rocca

That's a baseline. Always, always believing they're they're wanting an effective relationship with you. They're not doing their behavior is not targeted at you as a teacher, but actually start from that positive point.

00:34:32 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And um, you know, similar similar things about understanding individual differences. I think what we don't have at the model at the moment um in in education is a model of having self-reflection for teachers. And actually, just like kids will trigger us in certain ways, there are certain kids who will trigger certain teachers. And I think that's such a helpful um kind of thing to bring to a teacher. Like there's a reason that this little kid, whenever they do that thing, is caught is making you react in a way that maybe you don't want to react. So that insightfulness as an adult, I think, is important in all areas. But I I would talk in the same way, particularly about brain development. We haven't talked much about neuroscience. I think neuroscience and brain development and brain functioning is a really helpful thing for teachers to know.

How the Brain Works

00:35:29 Alis Rocca

What would you want teachers to know if you could if you could add a little bit of a summary of a module you'd put on teacher training? What would that be with regards to neuroscience?

00:35:40 Dr Bettina Hohnen

So, one thing is about how the brain functions and this idea that we can divide the brain into two different sections depending on what it does. So the lower bit of the brain uh is really where we house big emotions, and motivation and reward is also in that lower bit of the brain. And then the bit over the top of the brain is called the cortex, which is where we do the thinking. Now, for all of us, when uh emotions are in charge, when we feel particularly angry, when we feel particularly anxious or sad, the lower brain takes over, and then we are not in our thinking brain. We're not making good rational decisions. I think that is so, so important because first of all, you've got to get kids in their thinking brain if they're going to learn anything. So having safety in the classroom and um making sure that kids are emotionally safe and stable is important if you want to get them to learn anything. And then also remembering that when a kid is in their emotional brain, like for example, when you've just given them a detention or when something's happened and they're upset about something, there is no point in talking to them. Their rational brain is not available. It's the same for all of us, they don't really hear. And that's what we do sometimes. We, when a child is upset or they've done something badly, we talk to them about it and we do it over and over and over again. It becomes a lecture. They're not listening to anything that you're saying. So even when behavior is, as we call naughty or bad, I would say you just sit with them. You might say to a child, it's really not okay for you to do that. It's not okay for you to speak to me like that. I can see you're really angry. You label the emotion so the kid begins to understand what's going on. And then later you have to come back and talk to them when everybody is calm and you say to the child, let's have a think about what happened earlier. Because I know that you don't want to be the difficult child in class. I know that you're trying hard, and yet I want to understand what happened this morning because you got really angry or you did whatever you did. So that two model of you do one thing when the child is emotional, yeah, and you have a very different conversation when everybody is in their calm space. That is the best the way to get the best out of the child. It's much better for your relationship, and you will teach them because we are the kids' teachers. If we just come in with a with a detention or a um telling them off or whatever it is, even timeouts, and you say to them, you sit there and you know, think about what you've done, they're not thinking about what they've done. They need us to help them work out what went on.

00:38:18 Alis Rocca

And how do you as an adult, as a parent, as a teacher, how do you support them getting from that point of dysregulation where they're they're highly emotional to the point where they can use that second part of the brain and they can sit and listen and rationalize? What how do we help as adults with that journey?

00:38:40 Dr Bettina Hohnen

You know, just this idea of being with kids or anybody in their emotions is unbelievably powerful, and we have to wait until the emotions calm. So emotions will die down quite quickly. We can bring them up again with a thought. We think about, well, that person upset me, we feel angry again, and then it dies down. So it's time, a lot of it is time and just waiting. And also, there's a lot of incredible neuroscience that shows that our brains do better when we're next to somebody. So there's this amazing study. They put people in uh an MRI scanner, so they're scanning your brain and they had an electrode on these people's toes. It was adults, not children, that this was done with. And basically, when the person got a signal that they were about to get an electric shock, the amygdala, which is the fear center in the brain, starts to light up in the MRI scanner, as you would expect. But when they got somebody's significant other to come and hold their hand when they were doing the experiment, the amygdala lit up significantly less. So it's this idea that when we are with our attachment figure, significant other people in our lives, our brain perceives the world to be less stressful. It helps us to calm our emotions, it helps us to refin our thinking brain. So even when a kid is being really bad, even when they're trying to hit you and punch you, you don't let them hit you and punch you, but try to stay with them if you can and just say, you are so angry right now. No, no, no, you can't hit me. No, no, no. But I see how how strongly you feel about this. And you might need to, you know, get away from them if they're if they're hurting you, but knowing that just your presence and staying with them in that moment is helping their brain to calm down. Sometimes it can be a day later you talk to them about it. It might need a little bit of a distance. And one of the things that happens actually is kids don't want to talk about the times when they behave badly. So you come back and you say, We need to have a little think about what happened this morning when you hit your sister. And they'll go, I don't want to talk about it, or it's fine, I won't do it again. They'll try and bat you off. Of course they will. It's hard to talk about things that you're not proud of, but you just stick with it and you just say, We're gonna have to talk about it. We've got to find a way to talk about it. Come on. And you put your arm around them and you say, It's okay, I know you don't want to hurt your sister. But we've got to talk about what happened and help you to find a different way to manage things when you feel cross with her.

00:41:17 Alis Rocca

And that again, everything you've just explained there comes back to that notion of the importance of relationships. And I know as a teacher, and previously being a teacher, having having 30 children to be to be that attachment figure for can be really challenging. But I think what I'm taking from what you just said there is the importance of giving it time and reflection. And the the school day is a busy day, and there's more and more that teachers are being expected to do. But I think you're you're absolutely right, and you hit on something really key there is just have those moments of reflection as a as a teacher so that you can you can go back and rebuild any relationships that you you need to and to be working on.

00:42:03 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, and I think one of the things when I talk about the being with emotions for teachers, I think teachers can say, I've got 30 kids, I haven't got time to sit with them, and I really understand that. And note I think the thing to know is that it can just take a moment to do that validation. Actually, they're struggling with maths rather than saying you need to get on with it, or just get going, put your hand on their shoulder and just say, I can see you're really struggling, take some breaths and get going when you're ready. It's totally different experience as a person. So it can only you you may not have a long time, and even you know, parents will say, But I have to get to school, what am I gonna do? And and it's just about how, rather than saying, Will you get your shoes on? You just say, Oh, getting shoes on is just so hard for you this morning. Come on. Um, I think you know, shall I count to five? Will that help trying to make it into a game? Something that joins them rather than uh tells them off.

00:43:02 Alis Rocca

Yeah. And and going back to that, the the example you gave there of the teacher, it's not all 30 of them all the time. It's it's throughout your your day with them, and it might just be putting your hand on their shoulder and saying, I'm I'm here for you. And in whatever way that that looks at whatever age group they are, is is enough.

00:43:24 Dr Bettina Hohnen

And something that also um I think is important for teachers, um, I noticed, you know, when my my son, you know, he his behavior was sometimes a bit off. Uh he wasn't very engaged in school when he was younger. And remember they put him on report, you know, they have these report cards that they that they give. And when they put him on report, which basically means that at the end of the lesson, the teacher kind of makes a little mark on your card or something, his behavior or his engagement actually increased significantly. So they took him off report. And I'm like, well, first of all, it shouldn't be a punishment. Some kids need that. It's actually a form of connection. And secondly, don't take him off because you take him off, you know, he's gonna lose that connection. So it I I feel like it's something about that connection, about the child being seen that is important. That's how that's why report cards work. It's not because the child is being told off, it's them saying, Oh, the teacher is really seeing me, is really looking at me. And some kids really need that.

00:44:25 Alis Rocca

All kids, probably. Yeah, right. It's just that some that some kids need it and show that they need it, and some some are more introverted with the way that they they show their feelings.

Executive Functions

00:44:36 Alis Rocca

Can you tell us a little bit about what's meant by executive functions and and why that's an important area to understand with with regards to the work that you do?

00:44:47 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah. So executive functions are housed in the frontal lobes of the brain. There are these silent skills that enable us to manage everyday life. So it's the analogy is that they're like the conductor in the orchestra. They they tell the bit of the brain, the the rest of the brain, when to start, when to stop. Uh, you know, or it's not the right time to say that thing at the right now, how to plan, how to organize, how to manage our emotions. And they are developing over these 25 years. And actually, that's the last bit of the brain to develop is these executive functions. The reason that I use this model and that I think it's so powerful is because I think often we are mislabeling behavior in children. And if we use this framework of executive functions, we understand that often it's a skill that a child is struggling with rather than it being to do with their character or their intelligence or their attitude. It's actually a skill problem. We identify what the skill is, and then we can help to teach them this the skill. So, for example, if you have a child, there's a lot of behaviors that we can reframe using this model. Let's think about a child who they're in a football game and they think you know the referee has blown a whistle against them or something, and they shout out at, you know, they shout at the referee, I hate you, or whatever they say, something worse than that. Now we might say, That's a rude child, I have to tell my child that they can't do that. Or we might say, that's the child's response inhibition. Actually, the frontal lobes need to engage in that moment and say to the child, not now, no, don't say that. That's the wrong thing to say. So we say we can completely reframe it as a skills deficit rather than something intentional. Let's give another example. You say to your child, can you go upstairs and get ready? You know, I need you to get your, you know, your hat and get don't forget your gloves because it's cold and just clean your teeth before you come downstairs. And they come downstairs and they have forgotten their gloves. We might say, Oh my goodness, will you listen? Or we might say, that's a working memory difficulty. I think your working memory let you down there, and so you forgot one of the things that was happening. Now it always, um, as you can tell, assumes the best of the child, but it also gives the child a way of doing it next time. So rather than just getting cross and going, can you try harder? You say, ah, so when I give you three things to do, let's think about a way in which we can help you remember. Or next time you feel really upset by what the referee did, you know, sometimes referees do make a bad call. Next time, why don't we try this? And you give them a little strategy to do it. So it's building up these skills, it's setting them up for life, and it's keeping in this positive relationship and having the best intention for your child. And actually, it's so powerful. I even now work with a lot of adults who will be struggling somehow in their lives. And if you can reframe what's happening for them as an executive function problem, they think, oh, it's not that I'm bad, it's not that that I can't do this, it's a skill that I just need to develop. Or maybe I need a little strategy, maybe I need a bit of a help, bit of help with that. You know, this book that I'm writing, you know, I struggle a bit with the time management. So I've got somebody on board who's helping me with the time management. It doesn't mean I'm not I'm not intelligent, it just means that that's a skill that's a bit weaker for me and I'm still working on it, but I need a bit of a bit of extra help.

00:48:29 Alis Rocca

So again, as as adults who care for children, whether we're talking parents or educationalists, it's about again detaching the behaviours and seeing what's lying beneath it and thinking, okay, how can I teach? How can I support? How can I look at this differently so that they can learn a different way next time?

00:48:49 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, exactly. And it's incredibly powerful. I mean, one thing that comes up a lot for me in my work is um kids who struggle with flexibility. So flexibility is one of the executive functions, and that means it's a kid who, when um something changes and they can't do what they want to do, they fall to the floor and they are all over the place. So you say, Okay, you know, we we've been this is one kid I've been working with who needs to take some vitamins, and she is really struggling with her flexibility because she'll take the pink one, but she won't take the green one. And so rather than saying just come on or getting cross or making a character interpretation of that, we're saying I think flexibility is getting in your way. Let's think about another time when you've been really flexible. So I noticed that yesterday when the new teacher came in uh and the teacher that you love wasn't there, you were able to be so flexible and just say, okay, it's different, it's not what I was expecting, but but I managed it. So kids will be using these skills in some context, and then you can say, How can we help you in your flexibility with taking this other pill? It literally has changed this kid. Now she's now she's able to do that. But she was also struggling with going to restaurants when she didn't know what the food was. So um, those kinds of things which are so frustrating for everyday life, you reframe it and you have this new vocabulary, this new language to talk to a young person about what's happening. It's much more compassionate. It's a bit like I see you're struggling, and it's also building resilience for the future because it gives them a pathway for how I might I do this, how might I get better at this?

00:50:36 Alis Rocca

It's uh like a finite list of executive functions.

00:50:41 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, there's a great book called Smart but Scattered. Okay.

00:50:45 Alis Rocca

Uh which I would recommend by by Peg Dawson. Okay, we'll put that in the show notes as well at the end. Tell tell us a bit about that.

00:50:54 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, I mean, it is it's really about these, you know, kids. I mean, often kids who they might get a diagnosis of ADHD because the executive functions is the core difficulty underlying um in in ADHD, the core kind of cognitive difficulty. Um, but these kids who are super smart but they kind of leave this trail behind them, they're always forgetting things and losing things, and they can't manage their time and that those all of the executive function skills. So um the book Smart But Scattered, I mean, just if you if you suggest that to a parent who've who's got a kid like that, they will smile and go, Oh, that's my kid. So it's really good. I mean, I'm also writing this is the project crazily work I'm writing a book about executive function skills and struggling with my executive function skills as I'm writing it. Um, but which is but uh you know, trying to write about it as well in a more in a way to embed this approach in family life. Um there's a program called Activated Learning, where uh that's developed from Canada, which is embedding an executive function awareness in classrooms. So it's becoming more and more well known.

Growth Mindset and Stress

00:52:12 Alis Rocca

We talked a little bit about um uh mindset and about perspective. Could you could you let us know what you think? Um how how this plays a role in how you support parents and how parents and teachers can can support children through through mindset, through um internal motivation, through getting children to to see the world and themselves within the world in a in a more positive light.

00:52:41 Dr Bettina Hohnen

So there's a lot of research about the importance of our beliefs about things and its impact on our behaviour, even on how our body functions. Growth mindset and fixed mindset is an idea that is quite well known. This idea that uh if we have a fixed mindset, we have this idea that I am intelligent or I'm not intelligent, and it's very fixed and it affects our behavior. But if we can have an idea about a growth mindset, which is the idea that the more I do something, the better I will become at it. Um, you know, if I keep going with something that I'm struggling with, I will get better.

00:53:22 Alis Rocca

Even if we're talking about an executive function like flexibility.

00:53:26 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that is how the brain works. The way we get good at things is by doing them again and again and again. So it really fits with the with the neuroscience, but it has a really big impact on um a person's engagement with a task, obviously. If you think, oh, I just tried this thing, you know, I went and gave a public speak for the first speech for the first time. I was rubbish, I'm not good at public speaking. You're not going to try again. If you think that was the first time I did it, obviously, yeah, there were a few things that I was struggling with, and you should just do it again, and then I'll get better and better and better. So that's been brilliant. They came from Carol Dweck in the States, it's been very, very powerful. In a way, the executive function approach really adds on to that because I think one of the downsides to the growth mindset was that kids would be told, you can do it, just try harder. Go on, do a bit more, you you can do it, just try harder. But it became a bit of a pressure for kids. Well, I'm trying, I'm trying, and I'm sitting in my room and I'm revising and I'm still not doing well. So the executive function approach puts a bit of s of meat behind it and says, I know that you're trying, but I wonder what strategies you're using. I wonder if the strategies you're using are uh the best ones for you. So um that I think is really a really it it's not written about much at the moment, to be honest with you, but I think you know it will be. It it's a it's a growing thing.

00:54:56 Alis Rocca

We look forward to your book coming out so we can find out more to write about that.

00:55:00 Dr Bettina Hohnen

The the other thing, actually, and there was a young person that I'm working with, um, she's 17, a brilliant young girl who recently got diagnosed with ADHD. And she said this thing to me the other day because she's really struggled with stress all her life, and she said, I read the other day that actually a little bit of stress can be good for you. And if you have too much stress, you go over the edge. And uh it was really quite powerful for her because there is this research about stress mindset. So the idea of stress, well, the word stress, has a bad name. We think about stress and we think don't do it anymore. It's bad for you, it's gonna cause physical health difficulties, we need to stop it. But actually, that's not true. In order to do anything well, we need a little bit of stress to get us to the point where we're energized. But if we have too much stress, we fall off the other end, and then it's impossible for us to do anything. So, again, this is a very important area of research because what they've done is work with young people and said, you know, stress about this stress mindset idea. A little bit of stress is good, too much is is over the top. And that helps young people to say, okay, actually that feeling in my tummy, those butterflies, a little bit of it is a good thing. I'm actually going to give my peak performance when I've got a bit of stress. So that's the mindset, the way in which we see and understand what's going on inside us, our beliefs about that, is very powerful in helping us to keep engaged and to use that energy in a positive way.

The Three C's

00:56:40 Alis Rocca

When we talked earlier, you you talked about your three C's. Can you tell me, tell me what you mean by the three C's and how you use them?

00:56:49 Dr Bettina Hohnen

Yeah, so I think if anybody wants a little bit of a mantra when you're struggling with things, remember these three things: curiosity, compassion, and courage. So curiosity is that bit of reframing. It's about saying, what's really going on here? So if your child is really struggling, or if you are noticing something in you, you're noticing, oh my god, that behavior is driving me mad, or what that person is doing is driving me mad. Be curious, first of all, and say what's going on underneath. Then being compassionate is the being with, being with emotions, being with your child's emotions, and being with your own emotions and just going, wow, I am feeling really angry with that person. So there's a bit of curiosity and compassion, they go together. Or, you know, wow, my child, when I said no to my child, they really got upset about that. And um, you know, I need to be a bit compassionate about that. Doesn't mean I'm going to change my boundary, but I need to be compassionate and curious, and then having the courage to say, okay, either I need to stick to my boundary, or I, you know, um having the courage to reflect on your past or on yourself or on what's happening, hold that boundary, or push forward when you need to, push the child in the direction if they need that. But I think those three things can be helpful when you're feeling overwhelmed because we all have things as parents that trigger us more than other things. And that actually comes from our past. It depends on what's happened to us when we were parented. Again, it's not about blaming our parents, but it's about looking back and saying, for example, I actually really struggle when my kids are in conflict. And if I think about it, conflict was a difficult thing in my childhood. Actually, my mum used to get really, real

Topic(s): Attachment theory, How to promote functional skills, Strategies to support the children you care for .

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